San Juan School District Board Room
200 North Main Street
Blanding, UT

On November 23, 1998, a public hearing was held in Blanding. Hosts included the San Juan School District, the Navajo Utah Commission and the White Mesa Ute Council. About 40 people attended including several members Judicial Council members and staff of the Administrative Office of the Courts. The following is a summary of the themes discussed at the hearing.

Task Force Members present:
Daniel J. Becker
Donna Land Maldonado

Subcommittee Members present:
Joe Derring, Client Committee
Myron March, Post-Adjudication Committee
Rose Reilly, Community Resource Committee

Staff:
Eric Swenson, Pre-Adjudication Committee
Jennifer Yim

Interpreters:
Stanley Nez - Navajo
Michelle Dunn - Spanish

Issues discussed:

LAW ENFORCEMENT HARASSMENT
Perception: Law enforcement officers abuse their power in a system that targets Native Americans.

Native American Male Participant:
"I heard about a story of a person who live in this county here who is a police officer, born from a staunch Mormon family. He went chasing after a Navajo person who had been drinking. He caught him, grabbed him from the shoulder and just through him down on the cement and kicked him. This is how the people are being treated."

Female Participant (Joanne Holliday):
"My daughter was picked up at midnight and interrogated for two hours. The policeman wouldn't let her go until she [admitted] to doing it. I got a call at two o'clock in the morning. My daughter was just crying because she really got interrogated. The police wanted her to confess that she did it. But she didn't do it. It was another girl that did it, or something. But, a Native American got arrested and the girl didn't. I don't want to say because she was an Anglo. I don't think she ever went to detention for it."

Female Participant (Carol Billsie):
"One of my brothers was being kicked around by a police officer. And I intervened saying, that they didn't need to do that. I was told to either get out of there or they were going to throw me in jail also. Even after being warned, I went back there and was pushed out of the way. The only reason nothing was done about it at the time was my employer, an Anglo women was driving by at the time and she intervened."

Female Participant (Joanne Holliday):
"My son is seventeen years old, and he was walking on Main Street when he was told to come over. He has five tattoos. The police officer came over to him and took pictures of his body right on Main Street. And I asked, 'Why did you let him do that? Policemen are not supposed to do that and take pictures of your body. Then he said, 'Well, they want it for future reference."

DISCRIMINATION IN THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM
Perception: The court system discriminates against Native Americans.

Native American Male Participant:
"In the judicial system there are no Navajo people involved, no Native American involved, even in the court translations they really don't have people trained to do that. It makes it difficult for the Navajo people, and other Indian people to get due process."

18th Participant:
"A couple of years ago, my son got in a accident out here in front of the school. The cops came and did a vague report. I got myself a lawyer because the person who ran over my son didn't have insurance on his van and at the time was an FBI. Nothing came of that, and I have forty-thousand dollar medical bill to this day, plus my son is [in pain still]. That's not fair. At the same time, my other son got put in detention. We went to Judge Johansen, and he told us he doesn't really have anything to do. We should have spoken up. We didn't know when to speak up, because of the terminology. We went and found ourselves another lawyer and filed an appeal. We didn't hear a response for a long time. When it finally came, we were told, it was too late. We just have to deal with it. I don't think that's fair at all. I think lawyers need to come down off their high horses and quit asking for so much money, and quit telling us we don't have a phone, and [therefore] can't help us. It's hard when you live on the reservation and you don't have phone lines and some still don't have electricity and water. Judges and lawyers know how it is. They make all the rules and laws up there, and they don't come down here."

20th Participant:
"I got a boy, the first time he has got in trouble. They took him to jail and charged him with rape and other things. But the way he's been judged and stuff, I don't think it's fair to me. The Defendant doesn't even have a witness. My boy first came out of the cell and [sat]. The first thing the judge said, 'Hey boy, you know what you've done? It's gonna give you life term.' That's what I heard. I thought he must see skin instead of a person standing there. The lawyer tried to defend my boy, but the other attorney and the judge were sticking together. That's the way I feel. Whatever the lawyer says, the judge overruled it. I don't think that's fair. So I found a lawyer in Salt Lake. We lost a lot of money trying to give him a fair trial. The lawyers up in Salt Lake said he'd be released on bail or something like that because it's his first time [offense], and he did what the judge had to tell him. But still no good. He is serving time."
 

Perception: Parents perceive discrimination when there is often another side of the story to consider.

Native American Deputy Juvenile Probation Officer:
"There are two sides, the victim and the predator. If you're the victim, you'll sit back and say, 'I'm Navajo. I'm Mexican. I'm a whatever, some minority. I'll just take the backseat. I'll sit in the back row. Hey I'll get through it.' There are two sides of the story, I wish a lot of the parents would come into the classroom and sit behind a behind a one way glass window and watch their kid... There are high risk kids that have broken families, that have a prior record and have other aggravating circumstances. They go to court and sit in front of the judge. Then the judges asks, 'Hey, what's your story?' The kid sitting there replies, 'I don't know.' I've heard that so many times. I don't know. So, there's two sides of the story. The parents hear one side. The judges hear the other side. It's kind of hard."
 

CULTURAL & LANGUAGE BARRIERS WITHIN THE COURT SYSTEM
Perception: Reasonable representation and rights are not given due to communication problems.

Native American Male Participant:
"I have a close friend, a person I grew up with. He was taught the traditional teachings, the Navajo values and philosophies. He grew up by a very limited education. He's in prison today because of the way the judicial system works. They white man does not know us, how we think, how we teach, our values. Another reason why he is in there is because of the translation in the courts. In Shiprock, New Mexico, Window Rock, Arizona, the Navajo Tribe had people go through a year of training where they learn technical words used in the courts. Even though we can speak the English language, to a lawyer, I can hear him express himself. I can understand it to mean certain things. But to him, it means [something] totally different, maybe the opposite completely. So we both agree on it, and low and behold, my understanding was not correct, because he understood it differently. And because he's a lawyer, he has the upper hand. So, in the justice system, that's the way it works. Even though Utah should be setting an example as a leader in helping Indian people, they are not. They are way behind Arizona and New Mexico. So our justice system is not good for the Native Americans because we have a different value system. To a white man, a value is something just to be kicked or tossed around. To the Navajo, it's not. If you can trace it back in history from it's beginning and go through it and say this is how it is, then that is valid to a Navajo person. To a white man, a law has to be written. A value has to be written on paper to be valid. Because it's not written to a white lawyer or white judge, it is thrown out, and so this is where a lot of our problems exist."
 

Native American Male Participant (Stanley Nez):
"I work with the Department of Social Service. Sometimes I do some interpreting in the court, and there are things that do bother you. I got involved [late] in a case where a elderly sixty-seven year old Navajo man was charged with a felony. But when those things took place, he was processed through the court. He doesn't speak any English. This happened about four or five years ago. I went back to see him. He is not making any progress right now. That is the one thing that bothers me. I wish the court could look at those things closely to make sure that you are provided with adequate interpretation in the court system."

Perception: When asked to serve on jury duty, Native Americans cultural needs are overlooked.
7th speaker:
"I received a letter in the mail, and a questionnaire to fill out. I decided I was not going to respond. I have no wish to serve on the jury duty. The next letter I got said, 'If you don't answer these questions, you're in contempt of the court." Do I have any right? I finally wrote back to the judge that I had no intention to serve. My sister received the same letter. 'If you don't respond, you are in contempt of court.' Speaking of understanding the language, this is what we deal with. I wish the judge could ask, 'Does your health permit you to serve on jury duty? Do you have reliable transportation? Does your income permit you to serve on this jury? Even the distance we have to travel [is too long]. My sister was in shock. I want these judges to know it. She didn't know what to do. Where should I go? Who should I talk to? I told her 'Just write back to them asking you to be excused from the jury duty because of your asthma problem and arthritis.' Why isn't there a kinder letter that states, 'By the way, we sent you a letter. We would like you to respond.' When you are out there recruiting Native Americans, be kind have a heart. So, I plead with you. Be kind to us. Some of us don't understand the terminology that is used in the legal [system]. That's what I call double twist or triple twist English language to us. We don't understand what you're saying."
 

DISCRIMINATION AGAINST MINORITIES WITHIN THE CORRECTIONAL SYSTEM
Perception: Native American youth do not know how to defend themselves & are "too honest".

Male Participant:
"I've worked for fifteen years as a juvenile probation officer here, and the last five years, I've run the youth corrections detention center here. I think one of the reasons this committee came down here, is that Native American kids are so honest, they hurt themselves. They are not like white kids unless we taught them how to lie. They lay out to us what's taken place. They tell you the truth. They admit it. We double, triple book them for illegal consumption, public intoxication and this all builds up a big rap sheet. We've gone into a system where we let the computer do all the judicial work. The humanism has disappeared. It doesn't do a kid a lot of good to come and say, 'These are my reasons for doing this.' We made a matrix system up. It says, 'You've got this many points, therefore, this is where you fit on row 6, column 2, and that's what is going to happen to you. The humanism of the court system has left us. Native American kids are so honest, its scary. They don't know how to come to you and lie, unless you've taken them to boarding school and taught them how to act like we do."

White Mesa Male Participant:
"They have a lot of problems down there on the mesa. Right now my son is in detention. My wife went to see if they were going to release him. He was suppose to get out today. She told me they won't let him out simply because he had a pen or pencil with him, and they accused him of hiding it. I don't know how long they're going to keep him in there."
 

DISCRIMINATION AGAINST MINORITIES THROUGHOUT THE LEGAL SYSTEM
Perception: Once labeled by law enforcement, discrimination is perpetuated throughout the legal system against Native Americans.

Female Participant (Carol Billsie):
"I'd like to make a comment about being labeled because of a last name. I had an experience with the police. It was my brother that was in trouble and the police, rather roughly, were asking him questions. I went up to see what was going on and I was asked who I was. I gave my name, and the policeman looked at me and asked, 'Which Billsie are you married to?' I said, 'That's my maiden name.' Even after I told him that I had no records, he ran my name through. That is one reason why most of my brothers stay out of town because they are labeled as bad."

White Mesa Male Participant:
"These kids are going to be marked as nothing but trouble makers. They are not going to be accepted in society. Once when they get over the age of eighteen, they're going to look at their record from the past and say, 'This kid was like this all along.' That's how these kids end up in prison. When they get out, they feel a lot of anger."

Native American Female participant:
"Our kids are abused verbally, mentally, physically and nothing's done about it. The school system still has those people working there at the school as of today. I've got five kids, and even with the law, we're having problems. My kid is labeled as a bad kid. I've [experienced] harassment from the cops when my kids come to town. Right now, I have to go to court because my kid is labeled as a bad kid. This has been going on for two almost three years. My kid was also, suspended from school that I feel was for petty things. All kids swear. If you irritate a kid or harass him the way these people have, of course they are going to fight back and say something. I've heard many parents. I've seen many kids up there abused like that. At the beginning of the year they told me that my son would get counseling. To this day, he has never received counseling from the school, from the state, or anywhere. Even his probation officer said that he would get him a counselor. He has never received one. And now they have put him back in detention again. According to the guidelines we are supposed to [be informed] if our kids are in trouble. I was told that the probation officer was to be called first, not me. I was really upset about that. I didn't know what that my son was having problems off and on. They would tell me some things, but, yet the story would continually change on down from [person to person]."

Native American Male Participant:
"My son used to be singled out. He's not living here in town any more now. He was being singled out. Almost every evening he would come home complaining, really feeling bad. He said that, 'The police officers are after me for no reason. They park and watch me as I drive by, then they would start following me around.' It seems like this is discriminatory to the Native Americans."
 

Perception: Native American parents find it difficult to discipline youth when they have too many rights.

Female Participant:
"I think our children just have too many rights, and they need to limit those rights. Either that or they need to get some training on it or whatever. You know, we have rights too, as parents. And they think that, 'Mom you can't say nothing to me,' and 'Mom, you can't do nothing to me.' And there we are trying to discipline them. They won't listen, because they know they have rights."
 

Recommendation

White Mesa Male Participant:
"Some of you people say, 'We should get the school to help us teach these kids about the law.' Others complain about religion, how it plays a role in this county. [Instead of LDS Seminary buildings], maybe if they would put money into a building where they could learn about the laws and how these things work, maybe they would get a better understanding and maybe change some of these things."